Solving Police Recruiting with Dr. Marshall Jones

We push past “crisis” talk to show how culture, clarity, and speed drive real results in police recruiting and retention. Dr. Marshall Jones shares practical steps, from mobile‑first pipelines to stay interviews and leadership pipelines, that agencies can use now.

• reframing recruiting as a leadership and culture issue
• using Gen Z‑aligned messaging and day‑in‑the‑life content
• dropping legacy portals for mobile‑first applications
• compressing timelines to one‑day conditionals
• measuring true staffing needs with workload analysis
• adopting stay interviews and real referral systems
• elevating FTOs as coach‑mentors with a leadership path
• shifting roles to civilians where appropriate
• using RTCCs, LPRs, and analysis for real‑time deployment
• preparing for dark web investigations with technical UC skills

Safeguard Recruiting is owned and operated by first responders, and it is a public safety recruiting firm with a proven recruiting system that staffs agencies across the country. 

Reach out today for a free consultation and learn about our guarantee that will increase the number of candidates for your agency. 

Transcript

Meet Dr. Marshall Jones

Travis Yates 0:00

Welcome back to the show. As usual, I have Doug Larson, the COO of Safeguard Recruiting, with us today. And Doug, we're going to get right to this interview because, man, you're talking about drinking from a fountain of just greatness. We have Dr. Marshall Jones. He's a leadership expert, travels the country, and talks a lot about recruiting and retention. And I could not turn down an interview when he said, Hey, he's got a new book coming out. I wrote the I wrote one of the forwards for it, and he got to talk to me just on a phone call about recruiting and all this. I said, Man, you got to come on. You got to come on. So he comes on. Boy, he blew our mind, did he not?

Doug Larsen 0:39

Yeah, very informative person. Um, I love the fact he's got the book coming out, but this is one that you can't miss.

Travis Yates 0:47

Yeah, Dr. Marshall Jones, we're gonna be quiet. You got to listen to what he has to say. Let's get after it. Well, it's an honor to have Dr. Marshall Jones on the show today. He's a police recruiting and retention expert with over 24 years of extensive applied research on the subject. His consulting and training focuses on selection process and outcomes on field training, performance, and retention. He's a futures expert. And if there's anybody we want to talk to about the state of recruiting and where it's going in law enforcement of the day, it's Dr. Jones. Dr. Jones, how are you doing, sir? I'm

Is It Really A Recruiting Crisis

Travis Yates 1:20

doing great, Dr. Yates. Thank you very much. And uh it's just Marshall. Well, Marshall, I would assume your phone line's been busy the last several years because and what bothers me is this so-called recruiting crisis. It's a scary thing, scary thing that was facing us, but I will tell you, it's not a crisis. We've always dealt with recruiting and retention. Uh, we throw this word crisis out there because then it means that we can't do anything about it. Uh, what are you hearing from the field? What are you hearing from the folks around you when it comes to recruiting?

Marshall Jones 1:49

You know, it it's interesting. I I think there's some shifts in, you know, people that are interested in policing. And I don't think it's necessarily because everybody sees policing as bad. I think with a work-life balance preferences and values of the generation, it's, well, crap, that's a lot of work, and I don't get paid a lot, right? I mean, you know, when we were kids, we wanted to, we wanted to be cops to play cops and robbers. And that's just, you know, other than maybe today with Grand Theft Auto is not, is not happening. I, you know, I think what we we have more so than a recruiting crisis is a retention crisis. And I think that retention crisis is predicated on a crisis of lack of leadership. And the culture is what I think in many cases is driving things away. So, you know, we've got for the first time in history, we've got five different generations working

Generations, Values, And Work Preferences

Marshall Jones 2:35

in the workforce today. And that happens because the generational values and preferences that with technology advancement, they kind of get constricted a little bit. And and here's why I here's why the the generational stuff I find helpful and important in law enforcement. To me, the proof's in the pudding that the that the research that is being used to explain and understand generational differences, even in the recruiting context, is based on marketing research. Yep. Marketing people are using this to make a lot of money. Yeah, it works. Because if it didn't work, we wouldn't have it. So, you know, we've got we've got that stuff going on.

Travis Yates 3:13

Well, I mean, I not to interrupt you, but that's why safeguard recruiting exists. I mean, we were in law enforcement and we saw these departments spending millions of dollars, including our own, on marketing, which is designed to sell a product. And I was thinking to myself, wait a minute, Doctor, if we have a police chief opening in a major department, we don't put a website and a fancy video and put a billboard up for the chief. We hire a recruiting firm to go find the best candidate for that position. Why aren't we doing this for line officers? So we decided obviously we'd be the only company that actually does this. Obviously, it's been very successful because we source and recruit and we use marketing, but that's after we source and recruit. And so I guess you're seeing that, right? You're seeing this inundation of marketing. In fact, the marketing companies are tricky, they'll even form a sort of another LLC and call it police, whatever, and making people think they're police, but it's just the same general marketing companies they're working for products for.

Marshall Jones 4:07

It is, and and and I tell Chiefs in the new Chiefs class all the time don't waste your money spending a couple grand on these ads for the movie theater. The rah-rah, the SWAT team. We do it all the time.

Travis Yates 4:19

All the time we go, can you put an ad up in the gym? Can you put a billboard up? Or how about a radio ad? I go, This ain't 1970.

Marshall Jones 4:26

No. Social media. You you've got to get a social media person

Marketing Myths Vs Real Recruiting

Marshall Jones 4:30

that's law enforcement to manage your social media and to help with your recruiting messaging, and a five-minute day in the life video from another Gen Zier on what they did and how they made an impact on their community. That's see, this is the part of the generational values that we are not capitalizing on as a profession. They ask why, which most people get frustrated with because they want to know the purpose and how the purpose aligns with the mission. If you take the time to listen, build the rapport, and get the trust as a supervisor, their whys will go away because you instill in them this is why we do it the way we do it. And once they understand it, they're good. It's just we hear why, like a bunch of three-year-olds, and we get pissed off and grouchy about it, and we don't engage, we don't engage with them. You know, I here's the other one, and and Jeremy Wilson and the folks at the police staffing observatory. I I did a presentation with them at the Georgia Chiefs a few months ago, and room full of Chiefs, he said, Well, what's your staffing for? And how many are you down? And it was kind of he kind of trapped him. Well, how do you know you're short? You know, based on your call load, you may be at 2.1 per thousand, but you may be fine. You may be at six per thousand and be getting your butt kicked. What type of staffing analysis are you really doing to see what you really need? And you know, those staffing analysis, they can be complicated, but this is one of the advantages when you can find folks who are savvy with AI that you can ask it the right questions and you can parse that out. Uh, my co-author, John Blackledge and I are working with an agency now that wants to parse out, they have a lot of seasonal vacation fluctuations, significant in their population, and trying to track that, and then maybe look at things like part-time officers or look at seasonal officers or some other things that some agencies do, but we are, you know, two things cops hate the status quo and change. And we do not go look at what's the unique thing somebody's doing. I think the unintended consequence of the challenge, whether you truly having a crisis in your agency or not, is it's forcing us to look at things. But, you know, just like, you know,

Social Media And Purposeful Messaging

Marshall Jones 6:40

I I challenge the use of AI and policing, but the same concept holds true to Gen Z. Are we doing stay interviews? Like people leave, we're could we're familiar with the exit interview, but we also know anybody with any sense isn't going to burn the bridge when they leave. So if even if they had an awful sergeant or a toxic lieutenant, they're not going to say that. It's family reasons or whatever bullshit they give you. But stay interviews. And then, you know, you got to be careful. You don't want to say, hey, you know, you're doing a great job. Why do you stay? Well, it's a good question. But you sit down and you have a conversation. What are the aspects about being at this agency that you really like? And one of the one of the most valuable things that we have in law enforcement that a lot of agencies don't use are employee referral systems. You know, and I'll tell a chief, how many times you walk down the hall and one of your gruff old timers says, and you you make the mistake of saying, How's it going today, Officer Smith? I know Smitty says, Oh, well, since you ask, where are we getting these idiots we're hiring today? And every one of them raises their hand, yep, Smitty said that. And I said, Well, if you have an employee referral system, you can budget for it. You either give money or you give time off, which is in your advantage because you budget the money and it'll give you a little surplus there. But then you could turn on Smitty and say, Well, what are you doing to help me find good people, Smitty?

unknown 7:56

Yeah.

Marshall Jones 7:56

And that shuts them, it shuts them up pretty daggone quick. But the best thing, especially with Gen Z, if if they are happy and they're they fit into the agency, let them help find other members of the agency. And that's throughout history of policing, that's been how it's done. But we've kind of forgot that with the social media that many decision makers and agencies just aren't that savvy with.

Travis Yates 8:19

Yeah, we actually built a whole referral program around that because we're from law enforcement. We obviously know that's your best recruiters are already on the job. Yeah, we give we we we give them a specific link, they can send it everywhere, and they they it ties back to that officer and they get whatever it is, vacation days or bonuses or whatever. But oddly enough, Doctor, very few agencies are taking us up on that. I mean, we throw it in for free, we'll do this for you, and they just uh don't see it. And I think it comes down to,

Rethinking Staffing And Analysis

Travis Yates 8:45

like you said, on the marketing question, they think they can throw some money at it and problem solve. Well, what we have found out, and we've done over 500 specific recruit recruiting campaigns for law enforcement. I mean, we've staffed up a lot of agencies, and all we have to do is a couple simple things, and which is hey, you got to go where the recruits are, the Gen Z is, it's on their phone. You got to go there and find them, and then once you find them, you got to keep them on the phone. Don't send them to the HR, give me a registration, MS DOS on my desk. No, no, keep them on the phone, communicate with them on the phone, get the application on the phone, because that is where you're gonna keep them and maintain that contact.

Marshall Jones 9:24

Yeah, and we and you can't have a three-month process.

Travis Yates 9:27

No, we we and we see agencies, doctor, and this drives me crazy. Well, they say, Well, what'd you give? We can't do it that way because you've always done it this way. They lose 90%. We have the data from this, they lose 90% of the people at stage one if you take them off of the phone.

Marshall Jones 9:43

So, Gwinnett County, Georgia, they published this in the Georgia Chiefs magazine. I and I gotta give a shout out to Georgia Chiefs, they have a very good practitioner journal. And you can go find this. But I was a little surprised that they wrote the article because it gives away everything they do. They they're they're they're leading in recruiting in their region in Georgia, but they have recruiters, they have part-time recruiters. But when it's cold in New York and in Kentucky, they send recruiting teams up in advance. If somebody fills out the package in advance, they come in in one day and can leave with a conditional. Yep. Short to include their PAT test, right? If they show up that morning, they can still get it done in the day. So they have shortened that time from contact

AI, Seasonal Spikes, And Flex Staffing

Marshall Jones 10:25

to having a conditional to days instead of months. And it's the agencies that are that are tapping into those generational values and preferences that are actually seeing some progress.

Travis Yates 10:37

Yeah, and uh if people are listening to this, maybe you just ran across this for the first time. This isn't a money grab. I mean, we're we have over 100 years of law enforcement experience. We bring experts like Dr. Jones here to talk to him about it. But I'll tell you, as far as cost goes, everybody's different, but we're seeing about $100 a hire from beginning to end. Now that's not your cost, that's not your cost for the PAT or for the test. But no, your cost to source and to hire is I don't know, running about a hundred dollars, which is crazy to me because when I read a headline that some department spent $10 million in overtime because of staffing, I go, for $200,000, you're fixed, man. Where's the decision here?

Marshall Jones 11:12

And what's the what's the cost of the turnover from bad hires? Yep. You know, my my dissertation was on looking at entrance level situational judgment test exams because HR gives a test and it goes put on a shelf, and I'm like, there's got to be some value in there at looking at how we can leverage that for positive transfer training outcomes in field training. So I looked at years worth of DORs, I looked at all those scores, and guess what? There was absolutely predictive nexus between being able to not only get out of FTO, but to get off probation. And if they if they couldn't read and write at a certain level, they were doomed. If they tested once and retested because they failed, they never made it through. And then it came down to FTOs being with a coach, leader, mentor model versus a trainer-observer model. You know, we've got, unfortunately, and we've had this problem even

Stay Interviews And Referrals That Work

Marshall Jones 12:05

when I was active, full-time active duty, but a lot of times there's not a lot of incentive for FTOs. So we have that two-year, 18-month, three-year-they haven't even figured out the job yet, are now being the FTOs because agencies aren't making FTO a step towards being a corporal or a sergeant and treating it as a leadership opportunity. There's just there's so many parts of that of that culture component and being wise about it. One of the models that I've put together over the last few years is a law enforcement leadership pipeline that is fueled by a culture tank. And it's either septic or it's fuel. And in that, it has all those pieces because one of the things that I have found interesting in working with chiefs and working with agencies is Marshall, you've got to give it to me one bite at a time. You know, it's kind of like the how does the pygmy eat the elephant one bite at a time. Pick it, whether it's whether it's your recruiting plan, whether it's secession planning, whether it's performance management system, whether it's rewards, all of those things you can you can tackle one bite at a time. And if you've got folks that are working on graduate degrees or they're they're intellectually curious, they're the best thing you can do for one of your cops going to school is let them use a agency problem for a class project, and everybody wins when you do that. Because that's that's that's found time for you and for your for your agency member.

Travis Yates 13:27

Yeah, and uh, if you're just now joining us, we're talking to Dr. Marshall Jones. He's obviously a police and recruiting expert. You've got to just hear this guy out. But the best way to see it is to grab his book. He's a co-author of law enforcement leadership, management, and supervision. I consider it the Bible leadership. I wouldn't say I'd take it everywhere I go, but I have it on on ebook for that one, a doctor. But it's it's phenomenal to get it at all major bookstores. And and Dr. You have uh, I'm sorry, Marshall, you have been looking at this for a lot longer than the crisis period, which I think we all agree is not really a crisis, it's a decision issue. Where do you see this going? Do you see agencies figuring this thing out and going, okay, we now can do this differently?

Keep Candidates On The Phone

Travis Yates 14:05

Because if we take how we recruited in the 90s and apply it today, it's not gonna work. I think that's probably the problem with many agencies. Do you see them sort of getting this? And we've been through the marketing phase where they found out that marketing doesn't work. Our fear here has always been, we're not that. We're gonna work, trust me. In fact, you don't know this because we didn't talk about this. We guarantee candidates. You pay a certain amount of money, you know exactly how many you're getting, which marketing will never do for you. They'll guarantee clicks, right? Which does nothing for us. Uh, where do you see this going? Do you see do you think you think we're gonna get this figured out and be able to staff our communities up? Here, here's here's what's coming.

Marshall Jones 14:38

And you sound so confident in that. I'm I'm worried. I I am. Um, and you can save this and we can revisit it. Um Perf did a study back in 2019, the workforce crisis. And some of the stuff Perf does is great, some of the stuff it's okay. In this case, they had over 200 experts, including practitioners, get together. They they did stuff over a series, they did working groups, and one of the things that they they came up with, which I agree with, is the changing nature of society and technology is going to change the way we police. I'll give you a good example. It wasn't that long ago we could go track down drug dealers and prostitutes on Backspace and Craigslist. That's all in the dark web now. You know, one of the questions that the feds or somebody that's uh in a tech era, they're gonna say, Have you downloaded a Tor browser? Meaning you can get to the dark web. The assumption is if you've downloaded a Tor browser, you're doing crap you ain't supposed to be doing. The only way to address crime, and there is drugs, human trafficking, child sexual issues, child porn is all in the dark web. The only way that has been found as a best practice today through research is undercover operations in the dark web. Well, that's not getting tattoos and looking like a biker,

One‑Day Conditionals And Speed

Marshall Jones 15:55

you know. An undercover operative to go into the tour browser is going to have a pocket protector and thick glasses, you know, not to pick on anybody with a pocket protector and thick glasses. That nature's changing. The issue is AI can't help with it because it's designed that you can't penetrate it unless somebody intentionally makes a mistake for you to get in and see what they're doing in the dark web. So between that shift, I think we're looking at more and more real-time crime centers and more advantages with crime analysis. But the good use of AI. And what I mean the good use of the AI is let's take that real-time crime center information, let's include more and more cameras in the community, more and more license plate readers, and let's supercharge that to where we know the hotspot, not the day after it happened, but 10 minutes after it's happening, where we can actually put patrols where things are happening. The other thing is we're going to see when it comes to the technical stuff, we're going to see less officers in those positions. They're either going to be they're either going to be absorbed by technology or they're going to be absorbed by civilians. And one that I see now is more and more agencies don't have sworn background investigators in their hiring process. They're hiring retired cops who want that second job, and they love, they love doing those backgrounds. Some agencies are are farming, farming that aspect out. So there's a there's a lot of that stuff happening. But I think I think the real issue is we're being forced to look at what are our real staffing needs. You know, the the forever it's been the FBI recommend recommends 2.7 per you know 100,000 or per thousand residents. Well, that that assumes that every agency is dealing with the same thing. You know, you can look at Orlando that has over five officers per thousand, but look at Disney and all the tourism, it makes sense. You've got some smaller agencies that may have four, but when you consider their beach activity and their and their vacation stuff, it it makes sense. What I do hear from officers and agencies that that are lower than

True Cost Of Hiring And Turnover

Marshall Jones 18:00

the I have one agency that I work with are at 2.1 per thousand. It's an agency of about 200. They figured out they should be at about another 70 officers. And they say, we're tired of being told how great we are because we do more for less. So, you know, that messaging, that messaging matters too, but we have to take a true logic-based look at what our our cost for service really is. And then once we know what that staffing level is, do we have sworn positions in the right place? Nobody likes to have that conversation because here's where we've got the 24-year-old 24-year veteran who's got bad knees, they got a year and a half before they can drop, and they're working in crime scene, right? No, nobody wants to take away those positions. But the reality is if you are constantly 15-20% below what your staffing is, how many, how many positions are you not being able to fill that are critical? And usually you've got a detective spot here or there, you've got a crime spot here or there, you got a community policing spot that's not full because you don't have enough folks in patrol.

Travis Yates 19:01

Good stuff, Dr. Marshall Jones. Thanks so much for joining us. If people need to reach out to you, they can obviously reach out to us and we'll connect you. But is there a place that they can go to reach you directly?

Marshall Jones 19:10

Yeah, uh police leadership institute. You can reach me at the police leadershipinstitute.com or shorthandpli.network, and uh I'll be glad to give you my number that you can share, and they can reach out to me directly.

Travis Yates 19:22

Thanks so much for being here, sir. That was my pleasure. Thank you. And if you've been watching or you've been listening, thank you so much. We'll see you next week.